quote:

Originally posted by 9007933:
My father served in Vietnam and was exposed to large amounts of Agent Orange. He died in 1989 while we lived in England. He had originally been diagnosed with some form of "viral infection", then was later diagnosed with "hepatitis non-A non-B". hepatitis non-A non-B is what they used to refer to hepatitis C as, since there was no official test for it and no treatments at the time. Also he had had for quite some time before hand, several upper-digestive problems. At the time of diagnosis with hepatitis non-A non-B (hepatitis C), it was assumed that he contracted it through a blood transfusion he received during open-heart surgery about 6 or 7 years earlier. In the past few days, while researching my own medical condition, I came across information regarding some health effects caused by Agent Orange that I was previously unaware of: esophageal and digestive complications, and liver complications that sometimes mimic the symptoms and effects of hepatitis C. Is it possible that what we thought to be hepatitis C was actually caused by Agent Orange?

Now, regarding my medical problem. I have a very prominent connective tissue disorder. I have so far been unable to find any doctor knowledgeable enough to diagnose it. After my own research, I feel that it may be a form of Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome (EDS) (info at http://www.ednf.org/index.php). There only seems to be one contradiction: EDS is completely hereditary, due to the fact that it's caused by mutated genes and/or DNA breaks; No one in my entire family history has had this disorder. I think that I may be the exception to the rule, because although no one in my family has/had it, Agent Orange would have the ability to cause a gene mutation that would create similar problems to EDS. By the way, I was born in 1984. Does anyone know if there is a correlation between AO and connection tissue disorders in the children of Vietnam Veterans? I also have asthma.

I would appreciate any info on the Hepatitis C issue or the EDS issue. I know that it would be "too-little too-late" for my father, but it's not too late for me....and I have my son to worry about, if it is genetic. Thank you for taking the time to read this.

Yes, connective tissue disorder, and the Hepatitis C or liver issue,

Just because they say it is hereditary, doesn't mean that it isn't actually a chemical poisoning by a teratogen chemical, 2-butoxyethanol, that does affect the child

Consider glyconutrients for help

There is an ongoing trial now with schleroderma patients, and they glyconutrients are helping.

Should have results soon.

Easy to be exposed to 2-butxoyethanol today.

AVOID it or what ails you and your loved ones can be worse than it is now.

I shared info on a Vietnam vet forum, OK?

Thanks Maggie a big A&W Root

Thanks for your interest - Repost here: Vets + Disability

Just started a forum of info on the kidneys and liver and birth defects to children from the chemical that targets the kidneys and liver: 2-butoxyethanol

Maybe soon our researchers will note how similar health issues have been down through the decades and quit looking for something different all the time?

May I have permission to quote ... soldier's daughters with kidney and thyroid concerns?

Could be an issue for any soldier of any war period ... or for non war periods ... or for civilians. The clue is not the time period, BUT the same chemical throughout the decades, so even civilians are harmed, and that has been the dilemma for the gulf war vets ... they have more incidences of the same issues others have.

 

Dear Maggie:
OK so you do not accept the fact Agent Orange has had a devastating effect on the nearly 20,000 Vietnam veterans I have interviewed since 1977 (plus thouands of other veterans). We have had the Federal government deny veterans dying of cancers other than soft tissue sarcoma for decades. Widows and dependent children denied death benefits. The VA approves some soft tissue sarcoma cases and deny much more. You insist on bringing more "facts" against what we have fought for over 35 years. Why?
What is your motive?
If you wish to publish anti-Agent Orange material please ask Military.com to give you forum to do it. Please do not demean what little forum we have here.
In one post above, I said thank you for some information you posted. Then you post a link to a site, which creates more doubt in the minds of those, who do not wish to spend any more money on research. I know this for a fact, as I get e-mails constantly at my office regarding these issues.
To quote the website: "Reply: What Agent Orange gets blamed for is a whole lot more than it can do.
Scientists have said that the immune issues they find in Vietnam vets are not the kind of thing that Dioxin would do." What scientists? What criteria do they use? The sources used in my work include the basics: National Academy of Sciences, New England Journal of Medicine, Journal of the American Medical Association, USAF Operation Ranch Hand Study 2000, plus nearly 20,000 different veterans medical records reviewed by me since becoming a veterans service officer

 

We are talking about the same thing: all that happened to the Vietnam vet ... However, you give it the heading DIOXIN ... I give the other chemical the blame (Except for the 2-3 things that ARE dioxin (AO) only.

What happened to the Vietnam Vet? The whole list of presented harm should be presumptively approved; and although AO was in the mix for some who were harmed, it is not the core issue for most, nor did those who came down with many health issues 'on this list' have to be exposed to AO (They would have to be exposed to EGBE or 2-butoxyethanol, however)

I was just wondering, how many Vietnam Vets have applied for disability? ... and what percentage have been approved?

If they haven't figured it out by now, they probably won't. Paradigm shifts are hard to do, especially for the govt

But then, they didn't realize the real cause of Pres FDR's death, either

So, you liked something I shared? But I'm not sure what. Anyway, I have lots of other places to share if you are not interested.

 

quote:

To quote the website: "Reply: What Agent Orange gets blamed for is a whole lot more than it can do.
Scientists have said that the immune issues they find in Vietnam vets are not the kind of thing that Dioxin would do." What scientists? What criteria do they use? The sources used in my work include the basics: National Academy of Sciences, New England Journal of Medicine, Journal of the American Medical Association, USAF Operation Ranch Hand Study 2000, plus nearly 20,000 different veterans medical records reveiwed by me since becoming a veterans service officer.

I am interested in sharing. What I stated is a quote from a site, which raises issues that once again place doubt on Agent Orange residuals. Not in my mind, or most of those who visit the site. But in the minds of those who constantly work to deny the affect the chemical had on the Agent Orange exposed veteran. The link clearly stated as I copied it and pasted it "What Agent Orange gets blamed for is a whole lot more than it can do... Scientists have said that the immune issues they find in Vietnam vets are not the kind of thing that Dioxin would do." I respond what scientists, I now add, what is their research consisting of? A part of the research found in my studies comes from the 10-80 Committee which was a Vietnam national study done with the natives of the affected areas.
Those anti-Vietnam veteran sites are not going to disappear, so my wanting them to go away is a moot point. We worked for years to get what little recognition for the damage done to veterans (and others) by the government use of herbicides in Vietnam, Korea DMZ, Guam, Thailand and several other places.
I have no problem with issues of 2-butxoyethanol. I also have articles related to many cases of other conditions as well. It is just that this is an Agent Orange support forum and posting information which IMPLIES Agent Orange gets blamed for is a whole lot more than it can do" is exactly what I heard in the 1970's. This was when I first became involved in Agent Orange veterans cases.
I have written and published articles on: Benzene, Depleted Uranium, ionization radiation, non-ionization radiation, Undiagnosed Illness of PGW veterans, PTSD and a lot more. They are not posted on this site, they are posted elsewhere.
Please notice your article was not deleted, edited, moved or anything of that nature. It remains intact. I am not a censor. My statement to you is many people gave up careers to bring the Agent Orange issue to light. One was a VA employee of many years ago. Maude Victor a Veterans Benefit Councelor who assisted veterans in fighting the VA general response of Agent Orange claims, "just say no!" She was finally terminated. My own job was threatened in 1983 and 1984 over Agent Orange articles published in veterans newspapers and magazines.
I simply ask you not to try to take away what we worked so hard to obtain.

Some of my info I found on Ranch Hand site & some you reference.

I am just saying THE WHOLE list of harm presented by the Vietnam Vet soldier should be presumptively approved ... not just the first 4-5 items on the list. I am saying that if this is what happened to our Vietnam VET, THEN it is the kind of thing that 2-butoxyethanol does, whether or not AO was in the mix.

This chemical that was used in Vietnam: CAS:108-88-3 Toluene Fraction by Wt: 99.99% was neither chemical of harm.}

The 'list'

Soft tissue sarcoma *

Non-Hodgkin's lymphoma NHL

Hodgkin's disease

Chloracne (this however IS from dioxin)

Porphyria cutanea tarda * (in genetically susceptible individuals) * high blood sugar, low HGB this example

Respiratory cancers (lung, larynx, trachea)

Prostate cancer

Multiple myeloma

Hepatobiliary cancers

Nasal/nasopharyngeal cancer

Bone cancer

Female reproductive cancers (breast, cervical, uterine, ovarian)

Renal cancer

Testicular cancer

Leukemia

Spontaneous abortion

Birth defects

Neonatal/infant death and stillbirths

Low birthweight

Childhood cancer in offspring

Abnormal sperm parameters and infertility

Cognitive and neuropsychiatric disorders

Motor/coordination dysfunction

Peripheral nervous system disorders

Metabolic and digestive disorders (diabetes, changes in liver enzymes, lipid abnormalities, ulcers)

Immune system disorders (immune modulation and autoimmunity)

Circulatory disorders

Respiratory disorders

Skin cancer

Gastrointestinal tumors (stomach cancer, pancreatic cancer, colon cancer, rectal cancer)

Bladder cancer

Brain tumors

http://www.landscaper.net/agent.htm
______________________

Let's look at Dioxin MSDS info

Is it a teratogen chemical?

What birth defects are found in Vietnam Vets? in Korean Vets? in Gulf war vets? in WWII vets? today?

Spina Bifada OKed for Korean vets - Others?

I think it should be, along with Autism, growth abnormalities, connective tissue issues, kidney, liver, thyroid concerns, some of which are mentioned in this thread.

Good work you've done to find the pattern of harm for Vietnam vets ... and to take your job so seriously ... still with a big heart. Not true of everyone who has your job.

Lastly, for those who have been harmed by 2-butoxyethanol, they would have more than one thing wrong. You have to look for the pattern of CFIDS & the various stages of hemolytic anemia underlie ... and are the proof of its harm for the one strongly exposed

 

quote:

DearMaggie: "Is it a teratogen chemical?"

Yes it is, teratogen is a chemical which may cause non-heritable genetic mutations, or malformations in the developing fetus. I have read all of the "Veterans and Agent Orange" and the update releases from the National Academy of Sciences that you linked in your post. From cover to cover, every one and within days of their release each year (every other year until 2004 which was published 2005). Also on July 8, 2004 my testimony was made a matter of record, before the Agent Orange research committee in person. My testimony is a matter of record in their journal. Based on part of my presentation, the committee clarified diabetes mellitus adult onset, could also under current terminology, be referred to as diabetes type 1 and still be a residual of AO exposure. The sad part of that change, in "Veterans and Agent Orange, Update 2004" (released 2005) is the VA lawyers in the Central Office failed to act on that clause change, thus VA continues to deny the diabetes type 1 based on the former terminology, that diabetes type 1 was juvenile onset.
http://www.geocities.com/dave_barker_amvet/AO-2005.html
Our objective on this forum AGENT ORANGE DISCUSSION BOARDS is to keep the AO issues paramount, in the eye of those reders visiting this site. It is important to keep focused, or we shall lose what little we have gained.
In my many years of claims work, study, research, reading of medical records, schooling (college, then graduate school) and outside training by VA and continuing education classes when available, I have learned people ignore facts and go with the popular thoughts. I don't. In the Veterans and Agent Orange and subsequent updates, I have observed other birth defects with as alarming stasitics as spina bifida. One for example is cerebel palsy. However as being far more common, the compensation expense would be overwheming, so it was ignored. It was not a research study that showed effect on a cell, but the statisical ratio of exposed vs non exposed subjects that leads me to believe, a study should have been made, when the findings could have been tested.
The easiest way to lose our ship is to get off course.

My 7/8/04 report to the National Academy of Sciences can be found in the article "Agent Orange Heart" on my website.
http://www.geocities.com/dave_barker_amvet/AO-Heart.html

Because this is a free website from GeoCities (no money here for websites) the original article is on top, which was on Military.com. It is followed by my later NAS report which was added by my webmistress Maria Hall.

quote:

Originally posted by DaveBarker:
 

quote:

DearMaggie: "Is it a teratogen chemical?"

I have observed other birth defects with as alarming stasitics as spina bifida. One for example is cerebral palsy. However as being far more common, the compensation expense would be overwheming, so it was ignored. It was not a research study that showed effect on a cell, but the statisical ratio of exposed vs non exposed subjects that leads me to believe, a study should have been made, when the findings could have been tested.
The easiest way to lose our ship is to get off course.

For both diabetes and the cerebral palsy ... I find them to be things that 2-butoxyethanol would do. So sad that a 'for sure' concern for vets of Vietnam (Cerebral palsy & diabetes) would be not allowed, for such cause as you mention. I have heard this 'complaint' but your comment has more relevance, and makes it all the more sad.

You will also see these issues in Korean, gulf war & WWII time periods. So, I still contend that the chemical of harm is another other than AO.

But it doesn't matter to me what you call it. It is the term people recognize as being the group of soldiers of the Vietnam Era. To me it does not mean that it is AO that causes all of these things.

I started a questionnaire for doctors to give to find the harm of 2-butoxyethanol. It got so long of a list that I just quit working on it. Seems so absurd that one chemical all by itself could cause all of those things. But that is the truth.

The proof of harm of 2-butoxyethanol is the fatigue that doctors don't know, can't find. I've explained some of this flu-causing, diabetes-causing, birth defect - causing chemical here: The cruise ship that has too much 'flu' The flu is how 2-butoxyethanol exposure shows up

Problem with saying it is Dioxin that caused the primary harm to the Vietnam Vet, is that others who are harmed then & down through the decades by 2-butoxyethanol ... can be denied their rightful benefits.

I also believe that 2-butoxyethanol is the primary chemical of harm to the 'gulf war vet' HOWEVER, they were not interested in what I found, even though it was a for sure exposure for them ... they were only interested in what was approved for VA disability approval.

Sad state of affairs

_____________________________
This reminds me:
For both diabetes and Cerebral Palsy Dr Garrett of Kansas reported trials that showed amazing results for these two issues ... not within months, but within weeks?

Since he shared that we me, I started looking into glyconutrients. Something to share with your doctor/s

http://www.mannapages.com/sharethegift/AmbrotoseUSDoctors.pdf

Overview of both

repost

 

This message has been edited. Last edited by: DearMaggie, Tue 21 November 2006 03:56 AM

quote:

You will also see these issues in Korean, gulf war & WWII time periods. So, I still contend that the chemical of harm is another other than AO.

These issues exist with or without chemical exposure. My point is there is a ratio found linking them to AO. That does not exclude 2-butoxyethanol, carbon tetrachloride, or benzene from doing the exact same thing. I feel many diseases are caused by exposure to chemicals. My case studies on this forum are those exposed to AO, that's all!

quote:

Originally posted by DaveBarker:
 

quote:

You will also see these issues in Korean, gulf war & WWII time periods. So, I still contend that the chemical of harm is another other than AO.

These issues exist with or without chemical exposure. My point is there is a ratio found linking them to AO. That does not exclude 2-butoxyethanol, carbon tetrachloride, or benzene from doing the exact same thing. I feel many diseases are caused by exposure to chemicals. My case studies on this forum are those exposed to AO, that's all!

Well, we will have to agree to disagree.

If one were harmed by benzene, the primary party harmed would have aplastic anemia underlying the health issues, not hemolytic anemia. It primarily causes leukemia/ but not liver/kidney issues as does 2-butoxyethanol.

AND the CFIDS pattern is also what should be looked at, if 2-butoxyethanol causes, including central nervous system damage that mimics PTSD

Dear Maggie:
Thanks for disagreeing with me and the nearly 1/2 million people that have been affected by Agent Orange residuals. I clicked on the link and read it. So?
The first and bottom lines of that article sum up our discussion. It appears you wish to discredit the progress made of the AO victim for another agenda. Where is it written there is only one set of chemicals that cause damage to humans? What is your motive? I went through this same set of issues in 1983 with a former director of mine, who believed the government would never spray poison on the troops. He believed it was all a lie so Vietnam veterans could get money.
'Nuff said.

Oh, no, I'm not just picking on you. I've started with the gulf war vets; now I'm adding the current troops, the WWII troops, the Korean troops, and YOU.

It is a big, big issue

Diabetes Presumptive

A plan of action for PTSD Vets

What I shared with Senator Lisa Murkowski, of Alaska

When the doctors find the fatigue of CFIDS,CFS, FM ... with blood in urine & red blood cells that go from ragged & beat up to small sized ... then you might want to look at all groups of soldiers differently & add EGBE exposure to the list of allowable disability approval

All the best, enjoy your Thanksgiving

Turkey soup

Picking on me does not exist. I will give you the last word on this topic, as it seems as if anything else on my part is futile.
Dave

Post away....

Might does not make right. Anyone in your 1/2 million recognize the pattern of 2-butoxyethanol poisoning?

If so, they would not blame Dioxin for all that happened to the Vietnam Vet

Are you saying that was not mixed with jet fuel, as one soldier shared with me?

JP-2, JP-3, JP-4, JP-5, JP-6 are listed as pesticides by EPA. There was another chemical in the mix; based on warnings of the product (which is all that has to be listed) 2-butoxyethanol was there, too

To say that this poison helped bugs eat oil is ludicrous.

It affects multiple body systems simultaneously Where it shows up first is irrelevant. All the soft tissue sarcomas, NHL, CLL, DIABETES & many autoimmune metabolic issues ... including HEART & Vision and Birth Defects.

The reason I think the USA cannot find the real cause of 'gulf war syndrome' (Which as you know, the IOM says there is no such thing as 'syndrome' for these vets) The lines are so blurred between a group and the public or any other military grouping